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NaomiShimada_2021C-_在网络世界让内心重归平静的小贴士_
Cloe Shasha Brooks: Hello, welcome. 克洛·莎莎·布鲁克斯: 大家好,欢迎。
You are watching a TED interview series called How to Deal with Difficult Feelings. 您正收看的是 TED 访谈系列 《如何调节复杂情绪》。
I’m Cloe Shasha Brooks, your host and a curator at TED. 我是主持人兼 TED 负责人 克洛·莎莎·布鲁克斯。
And today we'll be focusing specifically on anxiety . 今天我们重点关注于焦虑问题。
So first I'll be speaking with author and model Naomi Shimada about the anxiety associated with social media . 首先我将对话作家兼模特: 岛田直美, 讨论与社交媒体相关的焦虑问题。
interview:n.接见,采访;面试,面谈;v.采访;接见;对…进行面谈; series:n.系列,连续;[电]串联;级数;丛书; curator:n.馆长;监护人;管理者; specifically:adv.特别地;明确地; anxiety:n.焦虑;渴望;挂念;令人焦虑的事; associated:adj.有关联的; v.联想; (associate的过去分词和过去式) media:n.媒体;媒质(medium的复数);血管中层;浊塞音;中脉;
She coauthored a book called “Mixed Feelings: 她与人合着了
Exploring the emotional impact of our digital habits." 《五味杂陈:探索数字化习性 带给我们的情绪冲击》。
It's all about how the internet has created a new layer of perfectionist pressure on our lives and how we can better manage our relationship with our online worlds. 全书探讨了互联网是如何 从完美主义这个新层面 给我们的生活施压, 而我们又该如何才能更好地 与网络世界相处。
coauthored:n.合著者; Exploring:v.探索:考察:探查;(explore的现在分词) emotional:adj.情绪的;易激动的;感动人的; impact:n.影响;效果;碰撞;冲击力;v.挤入,压紧;撞击;对…产生影响; digital:adj.数字的;手指的;n.数字;键; layer:n.层,层次; vt.把…分层堆放; vi.形成或分成层次; perfectionist:n.完美主义者,追求完美的人;至善论者;
Hello, Naomi. Great to see you. 你好,直美。幸会幸会。
Naomi Shimada: Hello, Cloe, great to see you, too. 岛田直美:你好,克洛, 同样幸会。
I'm honored to be here. 荣幸受邀。
CSB: Oh, well, thanks for joining us. 克洛:好的,感谢应邀。
So, Naomi, you have written and spoken about the relationship between social media and anxiety a whole bunch , such as the anxiety to post online or not to post. 直美,你曾登过文也发过声 尽述社交媒体 与焦虑问题之间的关系, 例如在决定是否发帖时的焦虑。
So can you tell us a little bit more about that? 对此你能不能更深入地聊一聊？
NS: So I always want to start by saying, even though I have written about it, 直美:我一直希望能申明, 即便我写过相关方面的书籍,
I still don't really feel like an expert because this is just -- 我仍不觉得自己是个专家 因为这实在是──
bunch:n.群;串;突出物;vi.隆起;打褶;形成一串;vt.使成一串;使打褶;
I always want to decenter my voice as an expert because I'm just feeling this out like everyone else. 我一直想让自己的 语气有别于专家, 因为我和大家一样 只是在试探自己的感受。
But in my experience, social media and anxiety are connected, you know, or social media exacerbates anxious feelings. 但鉴于我本人的经验, 社交媒体与焦虑问题是相通的, 或者说,社交媒体 会加剧焦虑感。
It exacerbates the human condition. 使人的状况恶化。
And so things that we may have insecurities and anxieties around, like, you know, our relationships, our bodies, our work, the things that make up our sense of self, 于是我们就可能会让自己 置身于焦虑与不安之中, 比如,我们的情感关系, 我们的体型,我们的工作, 这些构成我们自我意识的事物,
decenter:v.离开中心;拆卸拱架;使…偏心;使…离中心; exacerbates:vt.使加剧;使恶化;激怒; insecurities:n.不安全;不牢靠;无把握;心神不定;
I think the anxiety we feel or we can feel when we use social media can sometimes act as a marker for things that show us where we need to do work or where we feel insecure . 我认为我们感受到的焦虑 或者说在我们使用社交媒体时 感受到的焦虑有时也是一种标杆 用来衡量我们 何时应该工作 何时感到不安。
And sometimes it's just a message being reflected back to us. 有时这不过是反映 我们自身问题的信息。
And also, like I said, social media exacerbates the human condition. 同时,我说过,社交媒体 会使人的状况恶化。
You know, as humans, 要知道,作为人类
I think we so often just want to be loved and cared for and seen and adored or just acknowledged. 我认为我们过多的渴求他人的 喜爱、关注、视线、崇拜、 或者仅仅只是认同。[02:04]
marker:n.记分员;书签;标识物;作记号的人; insecure:adj.不安全的;不稳定的;不牢靠的; reflected:adj.反射的;得自他人的;v.反射;思考;(reflect的过去式和过去分词)
So social media has also become, you know, our main mode of communication, our method of work. 于是社交媒体也成为了 我们沟通和工作方式的 主要模式。
Some of those things, those lines can start to become very blurred . 它们中的一些界线 都开始变得模糊了。
CSB: Absolutely . 克洛:诚然。
Yeah, and in addition to making lives look shiny and perfect, social media also seems to fuel a lot of FOMO, or fear of missing out. 在把生活包装得光鲜亮丽之余, 社交媒体似乎也大大加剧了 “FOMO”现象,也就是错失恐惧症。
And I'm curious what you'd suggest for people who experience a lot of anxiety from seeing videos and images of other people having a ton of fun and, you know, not knowing how to deal with that. 我很好奇你要如何谏言于 那些在看了他人享乐的照片与视频后 会产生大量焦虑的人, 那些不知该如何调节自己情绪的人。
blurred:adj.模糊不清的; v.玷污; (blur的过去式和过去分词) Absolutely:adv.绝对地;完全地; in addition to:除…之外; shiny:adj.闪亮的;光亮的;反光的;有光泽的; curious:adj.好奇的,有求知欲的;古怪的;爱挑剔的; images:n.印象;声誉;形象;画像;雕像;(image的第三人称单数和复数)
NS: I think, like I said slightly earlier, the feelings of anxiety when they come up, like, what is that message, you know, taking that step back and being, like, why do I feel this way? 直美:正如我稍早前所说, 当焦虑的情绪来袭, 这说明了什么, 往后退一步,想想为什么 我会有这样的感受？
Why is this making me feel like this? 为什么这件事会令我作此感受？
And kind of reading into it. 试着去看透这种感受。
And in my personal experience, the thing that works for me is just taking a step back, taking a moment, you know, if something is making me feel bad, for example, if social media -- if we thought of it as a substance , for example, if something was making you feel bad, what would you do about it? 从我个人经验来看, 对我管用的办法 就是退一步,缓一缓, 如果有什么东西令我难受, 比方说,如果社交媒体── 假如我们能把 社交媒体当作一个物件, 如果某个物件令你难受, 你会做什么？
slightly:adv.些微地,轻微地;纤细地; personal:adj.个人的;身体的;亲自的;n.人事消息栏;人称代名词; substance:n.物质;实质;主旨;物品;
Would you stop using it? 你会不再使用这个物件吗？
You know, I think there's levels to this because sometimes, you know, we may have work now that is so intertwined with social media and it can't just be like, oh, stop using it. 我觉得这事 往往得分层级而定, 现在有些工作与社交媒体 有着千丝万缕的连系 无法说断就断,说停就停。
And I know that there's a spectrum . 我知道有这么一套层级体系。
And I'm also navigating this constantly myself when as a public-facing person, my job is so intertwined with social media and it's something I want to do less and less. 作为一名公众人物 我本人也在不断地探索, 我的工作就与社交媒体纠缠不清, 而我希望的就是能将其能简化。
intertwined:adj.缠绕的;错综复杂的;v.使缠结,缠绕(intertwine的过去式); spectrum:n.光谱;频谱;范围;余象; navigating:v.航行,操纵(navigate的现在分词形式);adj.航行的,航行中; constantly:adv.不断地;时常地;
So I'm navigating that kind of boundary for me all the time. 所以我无时无刻 不在为自己探索着边界。
So it's just negotiating , sometimes it's not as clear cut, you know, it may for you start as take the weekends off, or you know, 这就是一种交涉, 有时确实做不到一刀两断, 但也许可以从 过个清静的周末开始,
I actually personally most of the time don't have social media on my phone. 实际上我本人大部分时间 都不会用手机上社交媒体。
boundary:n.边界;范围;分界线; negotiating:v.谈判;磋商;协商;商定;达成协议;(negotiate的现在分词) personally:adv.个人;亲自;本人;就本人而言;
And just when I have to do something for work, that's when I interact with it, especially this year that's been so heavy, you know, and where there is no "off" button and every new day bringing such bad news, like, I'm a very sensitive person, 只有在工作必要时, 我才会使用社交媒体, 尤其今年是如此沉重的一年, 事事无法叫停, 每天都会看到坏消息, 我是个非常敏感的人,
so I have to do the things I know that I need to take care of myself, which is not scroll . 所以我必须用自己所知的 有效的方式照顾自己, 那就是不要划手机。
Also, I've had an injury in my hand, which means I can't actually scroll, so I'm like, "This is a sign! 而且,我的手受过伤, 所以我也没法划手机, 于是我就想: “这是一个征兆！
interact:v.互相影响;互相作用;n.幕间剧;幕间休息; especially:adv.尤其;特别;格外;十分; sensitive:adj.敏感的;感觉的;易受影响的;n.敏感的人;有灵异能力的人; scroll:n.纸卷;卷轴;涡卷形装饰;v.滚屏;滚动; injury:n.伤害,损害;受伤处;
I'm just not supposed to be interacting like that right now." 此时此刻的我就不该划手机。”
So just listening and knowing that you don't have to fall under the pressure. 所以我听之任之 让自己不再受其压力所扰。
Like, I think so often we think that if we don't post, we don't exist. 我觉得大家过份地认为 如果自己不发帖, 自己就不存在了。
Our existence, you know -- we only exist when other people see us existing. 我们的存在,就像── 只有在别人看到我们时, 我们才算存在。
supposed:adj.误信的;所谓的;v.认为;假设;设想;(suppose的过去分词和过去式) interacting:v.交流;沟通;合作;相互影响;(interact的现在分词)
Like, that, that whole line, like, "Oh, if you didn't post about it, it didn't happen." 就像那句话, “如果你不发帖, 事情就没有发生。”
That concept. 这样的概念。
We've started to internalize , you know, especially my generation of millennials , gen-Z, like, if you didn't post it, it didn't happen. 我们已经开始将其内化, 尤其是我们这代人, 千禧一代,或者 Z 世代, 如果不发帖, 就当事情就没有发生。
And so it's just like going back and being like, OK, is that true? 所以就得退一步,好好想想: 好吧,这是真的吗？
Why do I feel the need to share this? 为什么我需要发帖分享此事？
And asking those questions. 提出这类问题。
And that's what I do. 我就是这么做的。[05:16]
internalize:vt.使(习俗等经吸收同化而)内在化;使藏在心底; millennials:n.千禧世代;千禧之子;千禧一代(millennial的复数);
So like I said, I'm not an expert, 所以就像我说的,我不是什么专家,
I too I'm working this out and every day feels totally different. 我也在试着去摸索, 每天都有不同的感受。
But asking those questions is a great place to start. 但提出这些问题就是个好的开始。
CSB: Thank you for that. 克洛:谢谢。
So we have a question from the audience. 我们有一个来自观众的提问。
Let's bring that up. 我们开始吧。
OK, so related to this, from Facebook, "What question should we be asking ourselves before we post on social media?" 来自 Facebook 的相关问题: “在我们发帖到社交媒体之前, 我们应该先问自己什么问题呢？”
NS: So I like to ask myself, like, why do I want to share this right now? 直美:我会问自己,我现在 为什么会想要发帖分享此事？
Is this something -- as a person that has grown up on the internet, on social media, so often how I validated myself and my sense of self was posting something and people reacting to it. 会不会是── 作为一个成长于 互联网与社交媒体的人, 将发帖和待人回帖 过份地看作是验证 自我和自我意识的方式。
And I think that's just very murky territory . 我觉得这是一个阴暗的领域。
I think like, you know, why do I feel the need to share this? 我认为 为什么我会有发帖分享此事的需求？
Is this something that feels also private to me? 这难道不也是我的私事吗？
You know, in my opinion , on whether, and I guess, you know, I have not the biggest social media following, but a social media following, that sometimes, when I'm like, does that person, for me, 在我看来, 我的社交媒体粉人数 虽然不是最多的, 但也不算少了, 有时候,我会想, 他人的意愿,对我而言,[06:11]
validated:v.证实;确认;使生效;批准;认可;(validate的过去分词和过去式) reacting:v.起反应;(对…)作出反应;回应;(react的现在分词) murky:adj.黑暗的;朦胧的;阴郁的; territory:n.领土,领域;范围;地域;版图; in my opinion:在我看来;我认为;
does my family member want to be shown online, for example, like, or is this a private moment? 比方说,我的家人 是否愿意被展示在网上, 或者说,这算不算是私人时光？
I think navigating, like, do I feel not good about myself right now and is posting a picture of myself looking, like, hot, or whatever the equivalent of looking really happy -- 我认为试探自己当下是否难过 并贴出自己秀身材 或是秀幸福的照片──
I think sometimes so often we post about the things that we are yearning for, whether that's attention, love, craving . 我认为我们往往会 贴出自己的渴求, 不外乎关注、喜爱、执念。
And I think there's deeper underlying messages behind posting sometimes, you know, and that it is a projection of the things that we want in our lives, 而且我认为在发帖行为的背后 有时还藏着更深层的含意, 那就是我们在生活中 对渴望的事物的投影,
equivalent:adj.等价的,相等的;同意义的;n.等价物,相等物; yearning:n.向往;渴望;adj.思慕的;渴望的;v.渴望;渴求;(yearn的现在分词) craving:n.渴望;热望;v.渴望;恳求;(crave的现在分词); underlying:adj.根本的; v.构成…的基础; (underlie的现在分词) projection:n.投射;规划;突出;发射;推测;
for example, posting photos of people you want better relationships with or, you know, there's a big spectrum of experience. 例如,贴出你希望能 与之关系更进一步的人的照片 知道吗, 许多人都有过这样的经验。
But for me, I just try to ask myself, why do I feel the need to make this public right now? 但对我而言,我只想问自己, 为什么我会有将此事公之于众的需求？
Is this something that I am proud of? 此事会令我引以为豪吗？
And it's no critique . 这不是批评。
This is really questions that are just a gauge where I'm at or where someone else is at with it. 这些问题其实是用来衡量 应该如何给自己定位 或者给他人定位。
Like, is this something that actually 这真的是
I just need to pay attention to in my own life privately , of, like, this is something I should be working on or thinking about, or there's just deeper questions about context , 我应该在私人时间里关注的事情吗？ 这件事应该由我来处理或考虑吗？ 还是说整件事具有更深层次的问题,
critique:n.评论文章;评论;v.写评论;对…发表评论;评判; gauge:n.计量器;标准尺寸;容量规格;vt.测量;估计;给…定规格; pay attention to:注意 privately:adv.私下地;秘密地; context:n.环境;上下文;来龙去脉;
I think, that are important. 我认为,这些问题都很重要。
CSB: Yeah, yeah. 克洛:是的,是的。
And I think as we're now at our final question, which is something that I think is related to what you're saying around when to post or not to post, but from a different angle, which is, you know, 这是我们的最后一个问题, 问题与你刚刚的话题相关 问到了何时发帖何时缄默, 但提问的角度有所不同:
a lot of people have anxiety about whether or not to post their social justice activism on their accounts and regardless of the activism they might be already doing outside of social media, right? 许多人的焦虑在于 自已的社交媒体账号 是否发帖声援社会正义的活动, 而社交媒体之外 却没有什么实际行动, 对吧？
And some people just find it performative . 有些人认为这不过是装腔作势。
But at the same time , there was a fear of looking apathetic if people are not posting about social justice on social media. 但与此同时,人们会担心 如果在社交媒体上 都不对社会正义发声, 就会显得自己很冷漠。
whether or not:是否…; justice:n.公平;公正;司法制度;审判; activism:n.行动主义;激进主义; regardless:adj.不管的; v.不顾后果地; performative:adj.表述行为的;n.述行成分,述行语; at the same time:同时;另一方面;与此同时; apathetic:adj.冷漠的;无动于衷的,缺乏兴趣的;
So how do you suggest people deal with that anxiety and think about that? 那么你又会为这些人的焦虑问题 提出怎样的建议和想法呢？
NS: I mean, that's definitely an anxiety of our generation, right? 直美:这确实是我们这代人 才有的焦虑,不是吗？
Anxieties around posting about social justice. 面对社会正义发帖与否的焦虑。
I think the big question here is asking ourselves, like, what am I doing in my own life? 我认为这里主要的问题在于自省: 我究竟在自己的生命中做了什么？
You know, and again, there is a spectrum, because there's a lot of people who are sharing a lot of important information via social media. 知道吗,这同样有一套体系, 因为许许多多人 都会在社交媒体上分享重要信息。
definitely:adv.清楚地,当然;明确地,肯定地; via:prep.通过;经由;n.道路;[医]管道;
So you have, like, organizers and then everybody else. 所以会区分组织者 和所有其他角色。
But if you are -- 但如果你是──
Once again, you know, I can't speak for everybody, but just I think it's -- 再次申明,我说的话 不能代表所有人, 但我是这么认为的──
I read this quote by an activist in Oregon , a lifetime organizer called Grace Lee Boggs, and she said that, you know, that a lot of times in our lives we don't prioritize the importance of self-reflection and revolution . 我在俄勒冈州读到过 一位社会活动家说的话, 她叫陈玉平,毕生 致力于组织社会活动, 她说过,在我们的生命中 我们往往不会首先想到 自我反省和自我变革的重要性。
organizers:n.主办单位,组织者(organizer的复数形式); speak for:要求得到;代表…讲话; quote:v.引用;报价;举例说明;开价;为(企业的股份)上市;n.引用; activist:n.积极分子;激进主义分子; Oregon:n.俄勒冈州(美国州名); Grace:n.优雅;恩惠;魅力;慈悲;v.使优美; prioritize:v.按重要性排列;划分优先顺序;优先处理; self-reflection:n.反省; revolution:n.革命;旋转;运行;循环;
And I think, you know, we so care about optics . 我认为,我们太看重表象了。
We don't want people to think that we are racists , sizeist , sexist , etc. 我们不希望被他人视作种族、 体型、性别等方面的歧视者。
But to not create and redo this kind of harm in the world, we need to understand and really reflect on these systems that we've all internalized to some effect. 但为了不在世界上 制造和重复这类伤害, 我们需要理解并真正反思 这套我们都已内化到了一定程度的系统。
optics:n.[光]光学; racists:n.种族主义者;种族主义的; sizeist:身材歧视者;实行尺寸,身材歧视的;实行身高歧视的; sexist:n.性别歧视者;男性至上主义者;adj.性别主义者的;性别歧视者的; redo:vt.重做;重新装饰; reflect on:仔细考虑,思考;反省;回想,回顾;怀疑; internalized:v.内在化(internalize的过去分词);
So to understand, like, where am I on the spectrum? 那么,想要了解自己处于 这个体系的什么位置？
How do I benefit? 自己会如何受益？
All of these things actually really take time and deep, you know, self-reflection and work. 这一切都得花时间,
And that kind of questioning, I think, is something that I find it helpful to be offline because I'm like, otherwise, I'm just listening to what everybody else is saying. 我想,能提出这样的问题 就会在网络之外的世界 对自己有所帮助的。 因为,另一方面, 我也只是在倾听, 倾听大家都在说什么。
Like, are these my thoughts and my feelings or am I just internalizing what other people are just shouting into the atmosphere and into the internet? 听听这些是否也是我的所思所感, 还是说我只是内化了那些 被他人宣泄到全世界 以及互联网上的言语？
I think, there's moments where obviously, a lot the uprisings in June would not have happened if it wasn't for the information that was shared and that action, of course, was so important. 我认为,明显有好几次, 如果没人分享信息 那么六月里的许多 社会活动都不会发生, 而分享信息这一行为 当然是非常重要的。
offline:n.脱机;挂线;adj.脱机的;离线的,未连线的;adv.未连线地; internalizing:内在化; atmosphere:n.大气;气氛;气压;风格; uprisings:暴动;
But I think there's different phases , you know. 但我认为也要分阶段来讨论,
And when it's just about shame and optics, that's not how we change the world. 如果都只是在讨论丑事和表象, 那就和我们改变世界的方式相左了。
For us to change the world, we need to inhabit and act on these reflections . 我们要想改变世界, 就得深入反思并思而后行。
phases:n.阶段,时期(phase的复数形式);v.逐步实行(phase的三单形式); inhabit:v.居住在;栖居于; reflections:n.映像;(声、光、热等的)反射;反映;显示;表达;(reflection的复数)
So I think there are again, more questions to ask ourselves, like, do I just not want people to think that I do this? 所以又有了更多要留给 我们自己的问题: 我是否想让大家知道 事情是我做的吗？
And often we are in echo chamber of the people who follow us and people we follow, right? 我们往往是在自己的 关注者和被关注者中 人云亦云罢了,不是吗？
So a lot of the times we're just sharing and shouting into the atmosphere of people who have the same ideals as us. 所以许多时候, 我们只是在对着那些 和我们有着相同理念的人 进行分享和呐喊。
And that energy can be used in a different way. 而这股能量 会被引向不同的方向。
echo:vt.反射;重复;vi.随声附和;发出回声;n.回音;效仿; chamber:n.(身体或器官内的)室,膛; adj.室内的; vt.把…关在室内;
And also sometimes inhibits , I think, real harder conversations from happening, because I think social media isn't often an intimate enough of a space to be able to ask each other questions that we're afraid to ask. 而且,我觉得有时候还会 限制更沉重的话题, 因为我认为社交媒体往往 算不上是什么亲密空间, 不足以让我们相互提出 难以启齿的问题。
Or mistakes, it's not favorable to making mistakes anymore, which is my critique and sadness about social media. 犯错,也成了不再提倡的事, 为此我对社交媒体 感到不忿与悲哀。
You know, our biggest fear is being called out for something. 知道吗,我们最大的恐惧就是 应为某件事情而被人点名。
inhibits:抑制;阻止; intimate:n.知己; v.暗示; adj.亲密的; favorable:adj.有利的;良好的;赞成的,赞许的;讨人喜欢的;
But this call-out culture, sometimes, not always, 但这种点名文化, 有时侯,并非总是,
I understand its role and place in society, but sometimes doesn't allow for us to have more engaged conversations around these systems that we've internalized. 我能理解它的社会作用和地位, 但它有时候让我们 无法围绕那些被我们内化的系统 展开更紧密的对话。
call-out:唤起;出动;大声叫唤; engaged:adj.已订婚的; v.吸引住; (engage的过去分词和过去式)
And we all make mistakes and we all have to learn and sometimes it doesn't allow for that to happen. 我们都会犯错, 都要在是教训中成长, 而有时侯社交媒体 没给我们成长的机会。
CSB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 克洛:是的,是的。
Well, I think that's beautifully said and we've come to the end of our time here. 好的,我觉得说得很棒 而且时间也差不多到了。
But I am so grateful to you for this conversation, Naomi, and thank you for sharing all this. 很感激你能参与到 这次对话,直美, 谢谢你分享的一切。
I'll talk to you soon. Take care. 我们之后再聊。保重。
NS: Thank you, Cloe and everyone. 直美:谢谢克洛,谢谢大家。
Much love. 爱你们。