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HuangHung_2020S-_中美价值观如何影响冠状病毒应对措施_-
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| Helen Walters: Huang, it's so good to see you. |
海伦 · 沃特斯: 洪晃,很高兴见到你。 |
| Thank you for joining us. How's your 2020 been? |
谢谢你参加我们的节目。 你的 2020 年过得怎样？ |
| Huang Hung: My 2020 started totally normal. |
洪晃:我的 2020 年 有个再正常不过的开头。 |
| In January, I went to Paris, did my interview for the fashion week there, came back to Beijing on January 22nd, and finding things a little bit tense because there were a lot of rumors . |
一月份的时候,我去了一趟巴黎, 在那里做了一场 时装周的采访。 1 月 22 日,我回到北京, 发现气氛有点紧张, 流言漫天。 |
| Having lived through SARS, |
因为亲历过非典, |
| I wasn't that concerned . |
我最初并不是特别担心。 |
| And on the 23rd, I had a friend of mine from New York come to my house who had a flu, and we had dinner together, and another friend who came, who left the next day for Australia for vacation on an airplane . |
23 日,我的一个朋友 从纽约来到我家。 这个朋友当时得了流感, 我们还一起吃了晚饭。 后来又来了一个朋友, 第二天就乘飞机 到澳大利亚度假去了。 |
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interview:n.接见,采访;面试,面谈;v.采访;接见;对…进行面谈; rumors:n.谣传,流言(rumor的复数);v.谣传(rumor的第三人称单数); concerned:adj.有关的;关心的;v.关心;与…有关;(concern的过去时和过去分词) airplane:n.飞机;
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| So we were not taking this terribly seriously until there was a lockdown . |
总而言之,我们并没有 太把这一切当回事, 直到封城开始。 |
| HW: And we've seen that echo around the world. |
海伦:我们看到 这场疫情波及到了全世界。 |
| I think still some people find it hard to understand the magnitude of some of the measures that China took. |
中国所采取的防控举措之严, 我想直到现在 有些人仍然很难理解。 |
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lockdown:n.一级防范禁闭(期); echo:vt.反射;重复;vi.随声附和;发出回声;n.回音;效仿; magnitude:n.大小;量级;[地震]震级;重要;光度;
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| I mean -- what else are we missing about China's response in all of this? |
那么,面对中国的这一系列响应措施, 有哪些地方我们没理解到位？ |
| HH: You know, historically , we're just two very different countries in terms of culture and history. |
洪晃:从历史的角度来看, 就文化和历史而言, 中美是两个截然不同的国家。 |
| I mean, these are two completely different human experiences for its people. |
这一切对于两国的人民而言 是截然不同的经历。 |
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response:n.响应;反应;回答; historically:adv.历史上地;从历史观点上说;
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| So, for China, when the lockdown happens, people are OK. |
对于中国而言, 刚开始采取封城措施的时候, 大家都觉得觉得没什么问题。 |
| People are OK with it, because they think that's what a good parent should do. |
人们能够接受这样的安排。 因为他们认为 这是一个“好家长”应该做的事情。 |
| You know, if a kid gets sick, you put him in the other room, and you lock him up and make sure that the other kids don't get sick. |
就像当一个孩子生病的时候, 你会让他单独呆在另一个房间, 把他关起来, 确保其他孩子不会被传染。 |
| And they expect that out of the government. |
这正是人们期待 政府所做出的反应。 |
| But when it is outside of China, from America, it becomes a huge issue of the right political thing to do and whether it's infringing on personal freedom. |
但是在中国之外的地方,在美国, 这却变成了一个重大问题—— 这么做在政治的角度是否站得住脚, 是否侵犯个人自由。 |
| So the issues that you have to deal with in a democratic society are issues that one does not have to deal with in China. |
所以说,在一个民主社会 你需要面对的问题, 在中国通常不是什么大问题。 |
| I have to say that there's a word in Chinese that doesn't exist in any other language, and the word is called "guāi." |
我得说,在中国有一个词 是其他语言没有的, 就是“乖”。 |
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issue:n.重要议题;争论的问题;v.宣布;公布;发出;发行; infringing:侵害;侵占; personal:adj.个人的;身体的;亲自的;n.人事消息栏;人称代名词; issues:n.重要议题;争论的问题;v.宣布;公布;发出;(issue的第三人称单数和复数) democratic:adj.民主的;民主政治的;大众的;
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| It is what you call a kid who listens to his or her parents. |
这个词用来形容 一个非常听父母话的孩子。 |
| So I think, as a people, we are very "guāi." |
我想,作为一个民族, 我们非常“乖”。 |
| We have this sort of authoritarian figure that Chinese always look up to , and they do expect the government to actually take the actions, and they will deal with it. |
我们有这么一个 中国人能一直仰望的威权形象。 他们真切地期望政府 能采取实际的措施, 而且他们会接受安排。 |
| However much suffering there is, they feel that, OK, if big brother says that this has to be done, then it must be done. |
无论这将带来多大的困难, 他们觉得,如果老大哥说 必须得这么干的话,那行吧, 那就这么干吧。 |
| And that really defines China as a separate mentality , |
这就决定了中国的 一个截然不同的思维—— |
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authoritarian:adj.独裁主义的;权力主义的;n.权力主义者;独裁主义者; look up to:尊敬; defines:v.阐明;明确;界定;画出…的线条;描出…的外形(define的第三人称单数) mentality:n.心态;[心理]智力;精神力;头脑作用;
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| Chinese has a separate mentality, as, say, people in Europe and America. |
中国人有自己的思维—— 是有别于欧洲和美国的。 |
| HW: That sense of collective responsibility sometimes feels a little absent from this culture. |
海伦:我感觉那种集体责任感 有时候在我们的文化里感受不到。 |
| At the same time , there are, I think, valid concerns around surveillance and data privacy , things like that. |
同时,我想,对诸如监管 和数据隐私等问题的担忧 也有其合理之处。 |
| What is the balance here, and what is the right trade-off between surveillance and freedom? |
那么该如何平衡呢？ 该如何权衡监管和自由？ |
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collective:adj.集体的;共同的;集合的;集体主义的;n.集团;集合体;集合名词; absent:adj.缺席的;缺少的;心不在焉的;茫然的;v.使缺席; At the same time:同时;另一方面;与此同时; valid:adj.有效的;有根据的;合法的;正当的; concerns:n.关注; v.使关心(concern的三单形式); surveillance:n.监督;监视; privacy:n.隐私;秘密;隐居;隐居处; trade-off:n.交换,交易;权衡;协定;
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| HH: I think in the internet age, it is somewhere between China and the US. |
洪晃:我想在这个互联网时代, 这种权衡是介于 中国和美国的做法之间的, |
| I think when you take individual freedom versus collective safety, there has to be a balance somewhere there. |
当同时考虑个人自由 和集体安全的时候, 的确需要找到一个平衡点。 |
| With surveillance, the head of Baidu, Robin Li, once said the Chinese people are quite willing to give up certain individual rights in exchange for convenience . |
说到监管, 百度的 CEO 李彦宏曾经说过, 中国人挺乐意牺牲 某种程度上的个人权利 来换取便利。 |
| Actually, he was completely criticized on Chinese social media , but I think he is right. |
实际上,他也因为这番言论 在中国的社交媒体上遭到了抨击, 但是我觉得他说的有道理。 |
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individual:n.个人;有个性的人;adj.单独的;个别的; versus:prep.对;与...相对;对抗; Robin:知更鸟,罗宾(人名) in exchange for:作为…的交换; convenience:n.方便;便利;适宜;便利的事物(或设施); criticized:v.批评;挑剔;指责;评论;评价;(criticize的过去式和过去分词) media:n.媒体;媒质(medium的复数);血管中层;浊塞音;中脉;
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| Chinese people are willing to give up certain rights. |
中国人的确愿意牺牲某些权利, |
| For example, we have ... |
举个例子, |
| Chinese mostly are very proud of the payment system we have, which is you can go anywhere just with your iPhone and pay for everything, and all they do is face-scan. |
绝大部分中国人对于 我们的支付系统还是挺自豪的, 只要带着你的手机, 走到哪儿都可以付钱买东西, 刷脸就可以了。 |
| I think that probably freaks Americans out. |
我想这可能会吓坏美国人。 |
| You know, China right now, we're still under semi-lockdown, so if you go anywhere, there's an app where you scan and you input your mobile phone number, |
要知道中国现在 正处于半封城的状态, 无论你去到哪里, 只需要利用手机应用扫码, 输入你的手机号码, |
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payment:n.付款;支付;收款;款项;报答; freaks:n.狂热爱好者; v.(使)强烈反应,震惊,畏惧; (freak的第三人称单数和复数) input:n.投入; v.把(数据等)输入计算机; mobile phone:移动电话
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| and the app will tell the guard at the entrance of the mall, for example, where you have been for the past 14 days. |
这个应用就会告诉商场的保安, 比如说, 过去 14 天里你都去过哪里。 |
| Now, when I told that to an American, she was horrified , and she thought it was such an invasion of privacy. |
我跟一个美国人说过这件事, 她吓坏了。 她觉得这简直就是侵犯隐私。 |
| On the other hand , as someone who is Chinese and has lived in China for the past 20 years, although I understand that American mentality, |
但是在另一方面, 作为一个中国人, 而且过去 20 年一直生活在中国, 尽管我理解美国人的思维, |
| I still find I'm Chinese enough to think, "I don't mind this, and I am better, I feel safer entering the mall because everybody has been scanned," |
但我觉得自己还是带有典型的 中国人思维,觉得“我不在意这个, 因为所有人都被扫了, 这样让我感觉更好,更安全。” |
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horrified:adj.惊骇的;带有恐怖感的;v.惊骇(horrify的过去式和过去分词);使…战悚; invasion:n.武装入侵;侵略;侵犯;涌入;干预; On the other hand:另一方面;
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| whereas , I think individual freedom as an abstract concept in a pandemic like this is actually really meaningless. |
所以我觉得个人自由 作为一个抽象概念, 在类似这样的疫情当中 真的没什么太大的意义。 |
| So I think the West really needs to move a step towards the East and to think about the collective as a whole rather than only think about oneself as an individual. |
所以我觉得西方真的需要 向东方靠近一点, 从全局思考问题, 而不是从个体的角度看问题。 |
| HW: The rise of antagonistic rhetoric between the US and China is obviously troubling, and the thing is, the countries are interlinked whether people understand global supply chains or not. |
海伦:中美之间敌对情绪的上升 很明显带来了麻烦。 问题就在于,国与国之间 一直是互相联系的, 无论人们是否理解全球供应链。 |
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whereas:conj.然而;鉴于;反之; abstract:n.摘要; adj.抽象的; vt.摘要; vi.做摘要; pandemic:adj.(疾病等)全国流行的;普遍的;n.流行性疾病; as a whole:总的来说; antagonistic:adj.敌对的;对抗性的;反对的; rhetoric:n.修辞,修辞学;华丽的词藻;adj.花言巧语的; interlinked:adj.互连的;v.把…互相连接起来(interlink的过去分词); global:adj.全球的;总体的;球形的;
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| Where do you think we head next? |
你觉得我们下一步该怎么走？ |
| HH: You know, this is the most horrifying thing that came out of this, the kind of nationalistic sentiments on both sides in this pandemic. |
洪晃:在这场疫情中, 来自双方国家的敌对情绪 是最可怕的后果。 |
| Because I'm an optimist , |
因为我是一个乐观主义者, |
| I think what will come out of this is that both sides will realize that this is a fight that the entire human race has to do together and not apart. |
我想,这场疫情所带来的结果, 应该是双方都意识到这是一场 全人类需要共同努力对抗的战争, 而不是各扫门前雪。 |
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horrifying:adj.令人极其震惊的;v.惊吓;使厌恶;(horrify的现在分词) nationalistic:adj.民族主义的;国家的; sentiments:n.观点,看法;情绪;伤感,柔情,哀伤;(sentiment的复数) optimist:n.乐观主义者;乐天派; human race:n.人类;
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| Despite the rhetoric, the global economy has grown to such an integration that decoupling will be extremely costly and painful for both the United States and China. |
先不论政治言辞, 全球经济已经变成一个整体, 背道而驰将给中美双方 造成极大的成本, 带来巨大的痛苦。 |
| HW: It's also been interesting to me to see the criticism that China has received quite vocally . |
海伦:看到中国接收到 这种言语上的抨击 我觉得还挺有意思的。 |
| For instance , they've been criticized for downplaying the death toll , arguably , also for trying to demonize Dr. Li, the Wuhan doctor who first raised the alarm about the coronavirus . |
比如说他们被批评 虚报死亡人数, 这一点仍有待论证; 以及试图抹黑那位 首先对冠状病毒敲响警钟的武汉医生, 李文亮医生。 |
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Despite:prep.尽管,不管;n.轻视;憎恨;侮辱; economy:n.经济;节约;理财; integration:n.集成;综合; decoupling:n.去耦;v.去耦(decouple的现在分词); extremely:adv.非常,极其;极端地; costly:adj.昂贵的;代价高的; painful:adj.痛苦的;疼痛的;令人不快的; United:adj.联合的; v.联合,团结; (unite的过去分词和过去式) criticism:n.批评;批判;评论;指责; vocally:adv.用声音;口头地; instance:n.实例;情况;建议;v.举...为例; downplaying:vt.不予重视;将...轻描淡写; death toll:n.(事故、战争、灾难等的)死亡人数; arguably:v.可论证地; demonize:v.妖魔化;使…成为魔鬼; coronavirus:n.冠状病毒;日冕形病毒;
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| I just saw a report in "The New York Times" |
我刚在《纽约时报》看到一篇报道, |
| that Weibo users have been posting repeatedly on the last post of Dr. Li and using this as kind of a living memorial to him, chatting to him. |
说微博用户不断转发 李医生的最后一条微博, 以此作为对他的某种悼念, 和他对话。 |
| There's something like 870,000 comments and growing on that last post. |
那条最后的微博下面 有接近 87 万条留言, 这个数字还在不断上升。 |
| Do you see a change in the media? |
你看到媒体的态度有什么变化吗？ |
| Do you see a change in the approach to Chinese leadership that actually could lead to China swinging perhaps more to the center, just as perhaps America needs to swing more towards a Chinese model? |
你看到中国领导层 所采取的措施有什么变化吗？ 是否真的可能导致中国 更往中央靠拢？ 还是说也许美国更需要 向中国模式靠拢呢？ |
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Weibo:n.微博; repeatedly:adv.反复地;再三地;屡次地; last post:n.军人葬礼号;军营熄灯号; memorial:adj.纪念的;悼念的;n.纪念碑(或像等);纪念品; approach:n.方法;路径;v.接近;建议;着手处理;
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| HH: Unfortunately , not really, because I think there is a way between authoritarian governments and its people to communicate. |
洪晃:遗憾的是,并没有, 因为我想,在极权政府 和他的人民之间 有某种特殊的沟通方式。 |
| The night that Dr. Li died, when it was announced that he died, the Chinese social media just blew up. |
李文亮医生去世的当晚, 当他被宣布死亡的时候, 中国社交媒体炸开了锅。 |
| Even though he was unjustly treated as a whistleblower , he still went to work in the hospital and tried to save lives as a doctor, and then he died because he contracted the disease . |
尽管作为吹哨人, 他受到了不公正的对待, 可他仍然坚守在医院的岗位, 作为医生努力挽救生命, 接着因为受到病毒感染 而不幸去世了。 |
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Unfortunately:adv.不幸地; unjustly:adv.不义地;不法地; treated:v.以…态度对待;把…看作;(treat的过去分词和过去式) whistleblower:告发者;检举者; contracted:adj.契约的; v.使收缩; disease:n.病,[医]疾病;弊病;vt.传染;使…有病;
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| So there was anger, frustration , and all of that came out in kind of commemorating a figure that they feel that the government had wronged. |
所以一切愤怒和沮丧 皆由此而生, 人们借此来纪念一位 他们认为被政府辜负的人物。 |
| The verdict and sort of the official voice on: "Who is Dr. Li? Is he a good guy or a bad guy?" |
于是在出现的一种 类似官方裁定的声音中: “李文亮医生是谁？ 他是好人还是坏人？” |
| completely changed 180 degrees. |
媒体的态度发生了180 度的反转。 |
| He went from a doctor who misbehaved to the hero who warned the people. |
李文亮从一个行为不端的医生 变成了一位警示世人的英雄。 |
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frustration:n.挫折; commemorating:vt.庆祝,纪念;成为…的纪念; verdict:n.结论;裁定; official:adj.官方的;正式的;公务的;n.官员;公务员;高级职员; misbehaved:adj.不规矩的;行为不正当的;v.行为不端(misbehave的过去式);
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| So under authoritarian government, they still are very aware of public opinion , but, on the other hand, when people complain and when they commemorate Dr. Li, do they really want to change the system? |
所以在极权政府的统治之下, 媒体依然非常清楚公众的看法, 但是在另一方面, 当人们埋怨, 当他们纪念李文亮医生的时候, 他们真的希望改变这个体系吗？ |
| And my answer is no, because they don't like that particular decision, but they don't want to change the system. |
我的答案是,并不见得, 因为他们只是不喜欢某个特定的决定, 但是他们并不想改变体系。 |
| And one of the reasons is because they have never, ever known another system. |
原因之一是, 他们从来不知道除此之外的体系。 |
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public opinion:n.舆论;民意; complain:v.投诉;发牢骚;诉说; commemorate:vt.庆祝,纪念;成为…的纪念;
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| This is the system they know how to work. |
这是唯一一个他们知道 如何运转的体系。 |
| HW: What is wok-throwing, Huang? |
海伦:洪晃,能告诉我们 什么是“甩锅”吗？ |
| HH: Oh, wok-throwing is when you blame somebody else. |
洪晃:哦,甩锅就是 你把责任推卸给其他人。 |
| Basically , someone who is responsible in a slang Chinese is someone who carries a black wok. |
大概意思就是让其他人负责, 这是中国的一句俗语, “让某人背黑锅”。 |
| You are made to be the scapegoat for something that is bad. |
你被迫成为了某种恶行的替罪羔羊。 |
| So basically, Trump started calling it the "Chinese virus," |
这里指的就是,当特朗普开始 把这个病毒称为“中国病毒”, |
| the "Wuhan virus," |
“武汉病毒”, |
| and trying to blame the entire coronavirus pandemic on the Chinese. |
试图把这个冠状病毒大流行 怪罪到中国头上。[09:57] |
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Basically:adv.主要地,基本上; responsible:adj.负责的,可靠的;有责任的; slang:n.俚语;行话;adj.俚语的;vi.用粗话骂;vt.用俚语说; scapegoat:n.替罪羊,替人顶罪者;替身;vt.使成为…的替罪羊; Trump:n.王牌;主牌花色;v.出王牌赢(牌);;赢;胜过;打败;
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| And then the Chinese, I think, threw the wok back at the Americans. |
接着中国人把这个锅 甩回给了美国人。 |
| So it was a very funny joke on Chinese social media, that wok-throwing. |
于是关于甩锅, 在中国的社交媒体上出现了一些 很滑稽的梗。 |
| There's a wok-throwing gymnastics aerobics exercise video that went viral . |
最近有个甩锅的健身舞视频很火。 |
| HW: But tell us, Huang: |
海伦:洪晃,实话实说, |
| You're also doing dances on TikTok, right? |
你也在抖音上跳过这段舞,对吗？ |
| HH: Oh, of course. |
洪晃:哦,那当然。 |
| I'm doing a lot of wok-throwing aerobics on TikTok. |
我在抖音上上传了 好几个甩锅的运动视频。[10:26] |
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gymnastics:n.体操;体育;体操运动; aerobics:n.有氧运动法;增氧健身法; viral:adj.滤过性毒菌引起的;滤过性毒菌的;
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| HW: I mean, a potential silver lining of all of this is that it has laid bare some of the inequities , inequalities in the system, some of the broken structures that we have, and if we're smart, we can rebuild better. |
海伦:我想,当前局势 背后存在的一丝希望是, 它让一些体系内的不公现象, 一些现存的结构性问题 暴露于光天化日之下, 如果我们足够聪明, 就可以更好地进行重构。 |
| HH: Yes. I think one of the silver linings of this pandemic is that we do realize that the human race has to do something together rather than to be distinguished by our race, by the color of our skin or by our nationality; |
海伦:是的,我想这场疫情大流行 带给我们的一线生机是, 我们真切地意识到 人类需要携手共进, 而不是被种族、肤色 或者国籍分裂; |
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potential:n.潜能;可能性;[电]电势;adj.潜在的;可能的;势的; silver:n.银; v.给…镀(或包)银; adj.银色的; bare:adj.空的;赤裸的,无遮蔽的;v.露出,使赤裸; inequities:n.不公平待遇(inequity的复数形式); inequalities:n.[数]不等式;不均等,不平衡;不平坦(inequality的复数形式); structures:n.结构; v.建造(structure的第三人称单数形式); linings:n.[服装]衬里;内里;套筒(lining的复数); distinguished:adj.尊贵的; v.区分;
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| that this virus obviously is not discriminating against anyone, whether you are rich or poor, important or not important or whatever skin color or nationality you are. |
这个病毒显然不是 针对特定的人群, 无论你富有还是贫穷, 无关你是重量级人物, 还是无名小辈, 不管你是什么肤色, 什么国籍。 |
| So it is a time to be together, rather than to try to pull the world apart and crawl back to our own nationalistic shells . |
是时候让所有人团结一致, 而不是分裂世界, 爬回到各自“国家主义”的 保护壳中去。 |
| HW: It's a beautiful sentiment. |
海伦:这是一个非常美好的愿景。 |
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discriminating:adj.有识别力的; v.区别; crawl:v.爬;匍匐行进;(昆虫)爬行;缓慢行进;n.爬泳;缓慢的速度;自由泳; shells:n.壳;壳状物;炮弹;v.炮击;给…去壳(shell的第三人称单数和复数)
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| Huang Hung, thank you so much for joining us from Beijing. |
洪晃,非常感谢你远在北京 参加我们的节目, |
| Stay well, please. |
请保重。 |
| HH: Thank you, Helen, and you stay well as well. |
洪晃:谢谢你,海伦。 也祝愿你安好。 |